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Aeon Amadi
A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S.
Renegade Alliance
3847
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Posted - 2013.11.22 14:36:00 -
[1] - Quote
Noticed that you guys reduced the damage on the Rail Rifle and increased Charge Up time. This is just the surgical kind of change I was looking for and am very pleased to see that CCP is listening to our feedback! This will allow the Assault Rifle to still be king of the Close Quarters Engagements, as it should be (though there are some discrepancies with the TTK from all weapons being as an ASCR can still put down an armor tanker just as quickly as an AR).
That being said, my newest concern (one I hadn't originally seen due to my concern over the Rail Rifle) is that the Assault Combat Rifle doesn't have a large enough clip size for it's rate of fire. With a rate of fire faster than that of an SMG, and a clip size smaller, it's definitely going to have some ammo consumption concerns when used on the field.
In a twist of irony, I think the Assault Combat Rifle is going to be used with controlled bursts just because if you don't you're liable to run out of ammunition before the target dies 
ANON Diplomat -//- I Support SP Rollover ^_^
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Aeon Amadi
A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S.
Renegade Alliance
3882
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Posted - 2013.11.23 19:20:00 -
[2] - Quote
Shotty GoBang wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:This will allow the Assault Rifle to still be king of the Close Quarters Engagements, as it should be ... To my friend and CPM Nominee, Aeon Amadi: The comment above potentially raises alarm. Would you mind clarifying, at your convenience? 1) Are you saying that the AR should outperform in CQC (A) all other Rifles or (B) all other weapons? 2) What say you to the claim that ARs and ScRs presently outperform SGs and HMGs in CQC? 3) What say you to the concerns over AR and ScR hipfire accuracy? 4) Do you believe that a Rifle should have poor, fair, or strong odds against a SG or HMG in CQC? 5) What AR / ScR nerfs, if any, do you think appropriate to balance close quarter engagements? 6) What SG / HMG buffs, if any, do you think appropriate to balance close quarter engagements? 7) You seemed to suggest that the ScR is over-performing.; do you feel that the AR is also over-performing?
That's a lot of questions over one concern! I like it =D
1.) Assault Rifle should outperform the other rifles. At current the stats are too similar to one another and there isn't enough variety in the DPS values. It's not even a difference in bullets so much as a shaving or sliver of HP. Paper DPS =/= Applied DPS though so, remains to be seen what becomes of it. I hear the Rail Rifle has more recoil but considering how many people still believe that visual recoil has anything to do with a hitscan system I think that belief is a little skewed and considering that CCP reduced the damage and increased the charge-up time, I'd say that's a good sign =P
2.) I think the Shotguns is a finicky beast if only because the speed of the game is very very high (but the players like that so, that's good). And when I say 'very very high' I mean high enough that a target can literally strafe out of the shotgun's line of sight and often lead to a shot being missed. No amount of hit detection fixes in the world are going to help a player aim a weapon better, but having a bit more aim assist can.
HMGs are also a finicky beast because I don't believe they're being outperformed in the traditional sense of stats. It has a much higher DPS but, again, applied DPS is another story. There are two mitigating factors to that DPS which I'll discuss in number four.
3.) Hipfire accuracy is a make or break on a rifle. They're both very very accurate and I no less assume that the new rifles will be either. Too little and it's reserved for ADS (like a sniper rifle in some games) and too much it's suddenly a very very powerful weapon. I've taken a look at both and they have the same reticle as far as hipfire accuracy, which I suppose is a bit odd but assuming their accuracy is what makes them powerful is a bit of a misconception. If this were the case the HMG would be king, but it's not.
4.) SG and HMG are specialist weapons. A SG should be king of the very close engagements (and it is, provided you can hit them) while the HMG is more of point defense. I in no way think that the HMG should be changed until two things happen: B.) It gets more dispersion. This might sound odd but there's a video floating around that shows that they have laser-rifle precision when firing and don't actually hit anything besides what is on the center dot, that's not good because the target could be in your reticle but you'll still miss. The term was coined 'accurately inaccurate'. B.) Racial Heavies. Giving the slowest race in the line-up a close range weapon from the start was a bad move on CCP's part if only because, being slow, you can't expect them to close the ranges they need in order to apply the high DPS that the weapon has, especially when it's got such low dispersion. The best heavies I've ever seen almost always use kinetic catalyzers (odd I know) so maybe if we get a Minmatar Heavy it will help balance that stuff out.
5.) Fixing Time To Kill is a big part of this. You die from any weapon just as quickly as any other weapon so it comes down to minor intricacies and mechanics that revolve around the functionality of the weapon, like the HMG's accuracy being a double-edged sword. The game needs to be more tactical and less "twitch shootery" but it needs to be done carefully. Throwing in 60% more HP values on everything, in combination with other faulty mechanics, is what gave us Murder Taxi's; so we need to be cautious in the approach. I think that there should be a clear difference in the DPS values of the AR and ASCR (I assume you mean the ASCR because the SCR is not very good in CQC) after the TTK is sorted out; the ASCR at the moment is considered to be better in every way besides fitting cost for a variety of reasons.
6.) Shotgun could use a bit more aim assist within it's optimal range, imo, as it gets difficult to hit targets with it and this is only compounded by hit box lag if any exists. Another pet peeve I have is that I'd like the actual damage be listed in the show info as it shows damage per pellet but how many pellets is anyone's guess. It's a very powerful weapon as is so it surely doesn't need any more damage, otherwise the difference in tiers will turn out like the Laser Rifles (little to no variation). I stand firmly by the ideal that the HMG would excel if the above changes were implemented and would rather reserve comments until then.
7.) Not in any real sense, no. It's meant to have a high damage with a low range - the issue with it is that it's a weapon that is very easy to get into because it operates like any other rifle in a first person shooter. The specialist weapons (shotgun, laser rifle) all have a variety of issues with them that make them under-perform however so what we wind up with is a functional weapon that does it's job correctly and a plethora of others that need to be looked at for obvious reasons. If the Assault Rifle is the thing we're basing balance decisions off of than it should feel that that is the case. (word limit)
ANON Diplomat -//- I Support SP Rollover ^_^
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Aeon Amadi
A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S.
Renegade Alliance
3890
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Posted - 2013.11.23 23:50:00 -
[3] - Quote
Shotty GoBang wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:(word limit) Thanks for the clarification, Aeon. o7 I have a few followup questions for you, if you don't mind: 1) Would the current TTK issue be better addressed by adding HP or reducing DPS / Accuracy of high RoF weapons? If eHP were raised, would you agree that low RoF weapons (like Shotguns and Knives) should receive substantial damage boosts? 2) In other shooters I've played, fighters are generally rewarded for having the right tool, at the right time, for the right job. For example, a mid-range fighter is left at severe disadvantage if/when a close-range fighter manages to get in close. Would you agree that this fundamental dynamic is not presently observed in Dust as it relates to "jack-of-all-trade" weapons?
1.) Not in the slightest. The TTK issue needs to be handled with a scalpel. Making blanket increases/reductions is a great way to make imbalanced weapons even more borked. For instance, if we applied a 10% reduction in damage to all weapons (reversing the effects that we saw at the beginning of Uprising) what would happen? Well, TTK would go up, sure, but there's the issue of weapons like the Laser Rifle which are only good in a small 20 meter range performing far worse in that case.
I honestly don't know how to fix the TTK issue but I know that doing giant blanket changes is a terrible terrible way to go. If we increase HP on all suits, Logi's are even more powerful - if we apply a 10% reduction to all weapons, some of them can't compete, etc. I don't agree that low RoF weapons should receive a damage increase because honest to god they perform very well in the right conditions at current and adding more damage to them wouldn't do anything to help their usability or functionality.
Just the same, you can't say much about the DPS/Accuracy of high RoF weapons and at the same time say that the HMG isn't a good competitor considering that it (whether intended or not) is a very good example of both 
2.) I don't know of any shooters that are like this, honestly. Having played the Battlefield franchise, Call of Duty and Planetside (both of them, not just two) it's always been generally the same thing: All weapons are good with some weapons being better for certain cases. Call of Duty is a great example of this because you'd think that a shotgun would be amazing, given that the game usually focuses on small, closed-in maps; incidentally on Hardcore mode everyone and their mother uses SMGs. So why is that? A completely different game mechanic - SMGs go into ADS faster than other weapons. By the time you get the shotgun sighted, the SMG is already applying damage with perfect accuracy.
I think there are other aspects of the game that need to be explored before we start with knee jerk reactions like nerfing damage, applying recoil - etc. I'm adamantly against nerfing the Assault Rifle, what with other rifles being on par if not better (at least on paper). The DPS values are far too close and if we're going to start making changes, I would like the Assault Rifle to perhaps get a small (we're talking like 5-10 meters) reduction in range and a much higher DPS than the other weapons.
In conclusion, I don't think the Shotgun is a bad contender. Christ, I've been one-shotted by them with a damage value of 500+ damage so it's surely not their damage output and Mr Mustard can attest to the damage output of prototype nova knives (railgun level damage). Other aspects are map design, scanning mechanics being broken, etc.... Once that is fixed, I think it'll get a lot better.
ANON Diplomat -//- I Support SP Rollover ^_^
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Aeon Amadi
A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S.
Renegade Alliance
3897
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Posted - 2013.11.24 04:33:00 -
[4] - Quote
Shotty GoBang wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:
* Responds to inquiries *
Thanks again, Aeon. You make some good points, but I'm afraid our thinking is disparate at a fundamental level. Still love you, but I must disagree with you. I'm more in accord with CPM's take on weapon balance: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=120782&find=unreadThe "AR-514" / "ScR-514" status quo must be challenged. More weapon diversity means a better Dust for all of us.
PS: Weapon-sway, massive hip-fire spread, comparatively slow ADS-speed. These are the mechanics CoD employs to prevent hard-hitting ARs from dominating CQC weapons in close range.
Bear in mind that Call of Duty has those mechanics to prevent the hard-hitting rifles from dominating because it has the shortest TTK in the entire line-up of shooters. That being said, if we fix TTK than looking at rifles is less necessary.
Edit: And when I say that I mean in general. A SMG can kill just as easily as an AR in the right conditions.
ANON Diplomat -//- I Support SP Rollover ^_^
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Aeon Amadi
A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S.
Renegade Alliance
3902
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Posted - 2013.11.25 12:32:00 -
[5] - Quote
Shotty GoBang wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:
Bear in mind that Call of Duty has those mechanics to prevent the hard-hitting rifles from dominating because it has the shortest TTK in the entire line-up of shooters. That being said, if we fix TTK than looking at rifles is less necessary.
Edit: And when I say that I mean in general. A SMG can kill just as easily as an AR in the right conditions.
Perhaps a tangent, but my Prototype Scout's TTK of 0.3 - 0.5 seconds is equitable to that of CoD's. A half second TTK poses quite the problem when using a shotgun that fires at roughly 1 blast / second. What is a 400 HP sucker-punch to a 1000HP MedFrame, if he has the better part of a second to respond between each blast (rhetorical)? In the 3 second required killspan, how much damage can that MedFrame deal from his AR or ScR, without even pausing to aim (rhetorical)? The time spent and risk assumed in flanking his opponent ... his choice of biotics over plates for better odds of getting into optimal range ... all down the drain because the AR and ScR deserve "fair odds" vs a Shotgun (rhetorical)? Will Rail Rifle users also deserve "fair odds" when flanked by shotgunners (rhetorical)? I call foul, and I'm not alone, but you say functioning as intended. As a CPM1 candidate, these are the sorts of things I'd hoped you would say: * All-Purpose Rifles should have poor odds vs niche weapons operated in their niche. * The SG & HMG are under-performing; the AR & ScR are over-performing. * CQC dynamics could use some attention; nerfing Rifle hipfire would be a good start. I'd like nothing more than to support you for CPM, Aeon. I can think of no one more dedicated, trustworthy, or better suited for the job. Furthermore, I think you could do alot to encourage CCP to balance Scouts against other frames. But before I can support you, I need you to start taking non-AR-514 perspectives into account. We Scouts need someone who isn't afraid to call a spade a spade; someone who is willing to work toward balance, even it involves chipping away on occasion at his own entitlements. We talk about "fixing TTK" and how it'll make everything better. Today's AR and ScR are the predominant force behind the TTK problem. You've all but said you're opposed to any changes to the AR. How can we explore a solution without addressing a primary cause of the problem? To relate this particular post to this particular thread, I'm willing to bet that CCP has balanced the New Rifles against existing, vastly over-powered Rifles, and has paid negligible consideration to niche weapons like HMGs, Shotguns and Laser Rifles. I REALLY hope I'm wrong here -- CCP has surprised me before -- but I'm inclined to weigh the past as primary predictor of the future. Let's see how the Shotgun holds up against a Rail Rifle at point-blank-range.
"I call foul, and I'm not alone, but you say functioning as intended." Please don't assume what I am saying when I've never said it =D
They're not functioning as intended, my standpoint is simply that until we fix TTK on all sides it's important to take a look at all aspects of the gun-game and not just who's dishing out more damage. If we're going for the highest damage weapons than the Plasma Cannon would be the ultimate shotgun but I don't need to remind you the stipulations involved as to why it isn't.
If the only think preventing you from supporting me is the (assumed) AR-514 stance, than all I can say is thank you for your previous support because I'm not willing to compromise the health of the game based on agenda or by supporting changes that I'm not comfortable with because I feel they may be more detrimental in the long run. It's not my job to balance every little thing, it's my job to say whether or not we're on the right path and I've made it abundantly clear that I agree that what is happening in-game right now isn't working. The solutions I proposed are what I feel could help treat the symptoms, not cure the disease. If you're looking for a cure it's better to look to CCP directly.
"You've all but said you're opposed to any changes to the AR. How can we explore a solution without addressing a primary cause of the problem?"
Taking a hatchet to problems is what killed the Breach Rifle, the Scout's maneuverability pre-chromosome and Vehicle balance. I'm opposed to knee jerk reactions and mass overall changes when I feel that they're too benefitting one particular playstyle. I understand that Scouts are worse for the wear right now and the playstyle isn't up to par but as I have previously stated there's a lot of aspects that need to be considered before we start fiddling with damage and rate of fire ratios - other changes that could take place. Cloaking is the best example of this because it's been a long awaited feature that I've advocated as a Scout-only option that would significantly help the playstyle to a point where the damage/rate of fire may not be necessary.
CCP has previously stated that they don't want to touch Scouts until all of the racial scouts are implemented and I agree with them - there's no sense in doing immediate changes that make the Gallente and Minmatar Scouts amazing if they're just going to be rebalanced again later on (which will inevitably cause QQ when they're brought down a notch, provided they're overpowering the other racial variants) as it takes up dev time that I'd rather see put to other aspects of the game instead of re-circulating a single topic repeatedly when they can get it right in one go. Every 'temporary' change that occurs is adding onto that, so if we throw on some crazy damage buff to Shotguns to make them OHK between all tiers (standard, advanced, proto) than we'll just have to go back and fix it once other changes occur to balance them out. I understand that it sucks and it's going to take some patience, if you can't wait that long than I've done all I can.
I Support SP Rollover ^_^
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